00:00:01 [Music] moving the needle on founder failure one conversation at a time i'm your host lucas poles and welcome to startup 2.0 by spark xyz join us each week as we give you access to some of the top investors and entrepreneurs around the country to help you think through and overcome some of the top challenges that start-ups i think there's no better place in the country to be investing than los angeles what is the problem that you're solving and for who like what is that specific pain point sometimes when a company is not

00:00:31 listening to its customers and just thinks it knows better than it customers has a really really hard time finding product market fit i want to see somebody that that isn't gonna stop you know this person you just feel like they're gonna they're gonna they're gonna make it work [Music] a big heartfelt thank you to brex who without their support this show would not be possible we've seen firsthand the difficulties accessing basic corporate credit without providing a security deposit or personal guarantee early on

00:01:04 as companies grow managing expenses has become more difficult and time consuming which is why we've partnered with brex to offer a corporate credit card that is not personally guaranteed offers higher credit limits provides auto reconciliation and integrates with erps using receipt capture brex is the credit card of the start ecosystem and we highly encourage you to check them out christian welcome to the show thanks a lot for having me lucas how you doing good good uh always good to chat i just wanted to

00:01:33 start off by finding out more about you more about your background how you got into this space and then we'll do a deep dive and do uh no code very cool yeah so where to start where to start um yeah i basically have been a professional entrepreneur for the past 12 years my background is very international i come from a argentine and swiss background i'm not at all american although i speak english like an american by going to international schools my entire life anyway started building companies way

00:02:07 too young um some of those companies uh were very successful others were not and um about three years ago i started running a program as well and got really interested in training startups so i became the director of startup boost la and so it's an organization that trained over a hundred startups who went on to raise more than 40 million dollars and also get companies into y combinator and 500 startups into um you know all the the big ones tech stars as well mucker labs and so you know one of the

00:02:39 big things for me was just that i was looking at about 300 um applications every six months and i was just overwhelmed with this feeling that so many people were taking a very long and expensive path towards entrepreneurship when trying to build digital products specifically and at that point i basically started we are no code because for me the biggest the biggest turning point was the day i discovered no code tools um so that was about five years ago uh fast forward five years and you know it's the the world has very much changed

00:03:14 and uh the technologies that are capable of being built with no code uh went from sort of you know being able to build basic stores and basic websites landing pages to building very solid sort of you know marketplaces messaging apps um productivity tools so slack stuff crms you can really build a huge number of things with the technologies that are now available and they are also very scalable so you know what i basically say is that you know no code is in my opinion the only um the only uh it's really

00:03:49 going to revolutionize um early stage entrepreneurship and it's definitely going to empower a huge number of people who don't know how to code so that's uh yeah awesome so um so you started because of and let's dive into a little bit so you started because you were running you were seeing all these entrepreneurs that were having challenges uh with i mean what were the specific challenges was it that they couldn't find a tech co-founder was it that they were hiring dev shops and spending 60 100 250k to build out their initial product

00:04:23 like what what were some of the reasons that you felt that it was necessary to put into uh i guess the marketplace yeah no that's a great question i you you nailed two of them um i think the biggest problem that entrepreneurs make um early on is the same it is actually just because they're using their logic and unfortunately building startups is very counterintuitive um and so you know they they're basically like i have this idea um sometimes that you know those people have a lot of experience in the market

00:04:56 itself in the corporate setting um and so they're like i'm gonna go out there and build it um so you know obviously i you need to find a developer that's the way that they think because that's you know i guess what we've been trained to to believe and so it's either this path of i need to look for a technical co-founder and then you see people spending months going to every single event out there to try to get um uh you know let's get married to a technical co-founder and and the realities are that the

00:05:25 likelihood that you'll find someone who's perfectly aligned with your mission excited to leave his job at google to be able to pursue this you know and you also get along with on a personal level and have a good working relationship are very very low so that usually ends up being a huge waste of time and time is money i mean if you live in la every month i guess basic expenses are like 200 2 500 3 000 like minimum that's if you're living in a tiny place uh and so basically like that's one of them the other one is going out and

00:05:58 basically saying oh you know i have money that's another like the people i see who make the most mistakes are maybe the ones who believe that you can throw money at things and have it solved so that really looks like going um and finding either a a development agency who and they will build every single feature that you want and that's actually a problem because early on there are so many assumptions in the background of of the idea that you have that you really need to break down and have to to like kind of like address those one

00:06:29 by one and head on to be able to see whether or not it's worth building out um you know the next iterations of your product but basically it looks something like okay it's going to cost you 30 or 50 or 100 thousand dollars to build the first um first product and then as every project does there's project creep either because there's miscommunication between the founder and his expectations and the development shop or the developers and so there's always added costs and added time and so you know and then oftentimes they

00:07:02 bring that product to market once they've built it out fully and they realize that the actual demand for it is very different than what they've built and so then it's like unbuilding rebuilding oftentimes people also go offshore so they try to find offshore companies to outsource it and there in many cases you kind of get what you pay for i've already been lucky once working with an offshore company but most cases i can tell you it's a disaster you you send it out it's like oh it's only going to cost you ten

00:07:32 thousand dollars spaghetti code comes back nothing works um and and and it's problematic because and so what i see is basically this path where people basically spend between 12 and 18 months spend between 50 and several hundred thousand dollars and really have nothing to show for it and the problem is that the the investment market has matured right and the accelerator market has matured uh to the point where um you know if you don't have traction if you don't have revenue you really aren't going to be able to

00:08:04 get in something into some of these programs and so a lot of people spend so much time early on like oh i don't have money to be able to build my first product so they go and try to find investors and that's also just a huge waste of time and the bottom line is like you know it's been 50 years been half a century since silicon valley started building startups there is a methodology that can be followed you know no code tools are now powerful enough to be able to build very sophisticated products at a

00:08:34 fraction of the cost without any technical skills uh without any investors and so that's where um this intersect kind of uh for me was was a place of opportunity where i saw you know the the we need to address what people are trying to do and for people who are non-technical this is an amazing option because it allows you to go out there to grab any idea that you have to test it in the market realize exactly what it is that you have to build um and then basically go out and build that yourself and and as you start going through that

00:09:07 you're able to then acquire your first customers and then it's much easier to bring people on board whether that's employees a technical co-founder investors get into accelerators to get that support but the bottom line is you have to build a business before you can expect people to support you and that's something that unfortunately the the pressure and the financial resources required to get to that place now are all in the hands of the founder so it's very important for people to take the right route awesome so you hit

00:09:40 on a lot of uh some of my favorite points in there um i love that you guys are using like more of the lean startup methodology to put something into the market and i think one of my favorite portfolio companies actually that i had was they created an entire business it was around social but they had no technology they literally were using like excel and they were up to 30k mrr they had nothing but like hustle and from our perspective it was like look like we can put technology behind it like and

00:10:15 we can scale this significantly faster but you've already proved to us that there's an actual market and so yeah like let's do it i'm excited about it um going forward so uh absolutely love that i love that you hit on the the fact that it's significantly easier to recruit a technical co-founder if you have an actual product like if you have something if you have something to show them because they're just interviewing tech founders or having conversations with them it's like yeah i get hit up constantly

00:10:47 about this stuff it's like oh i have an idea like uh i want you to go build it it's like why would i waste my time doing that i'm the one that's in demand it doesn't make sense for me to just drop everything and go build this idea that i don't even know if it's going to work but if i watch someone's like hey i don't just have an idea like i have a business that is generating revenue that is doing well let's scale it let's build some technology on the back end and be able to take it going forward

00:11:15 i think that's a very powerful statement that differentiates yourself very much across the market for a lot of people that are out there um yeah absolutely yeah it's important it's basically like there are two kinds of founders those who uh chase after investors and people to come and help them and other people who are just like you know what i'm gonna do this anyway i'm gonna do this no matter what um you know and then people get attracted you know investors accelerators technical co-founders non-technical

00:11:46 co-founders they get attracted to people who are uh who are forces of nature and i think that's you know if you have the vision it's not enough to just have the vision you have to take those first steps and so i think that there's also just this huge disconnect between uh knowledge out there so like a lot of people i just see them going and reading so many articles and watching so many youtube videos about like how to build startups um and then either it's analysis paralysis so you've read so much that you don't even know where to

00:12:16 start it's like you know there's a thousand things you could be doing at the same time um and so people are working on like all these different things and they feel overwhelmed and frustrated and i think that it's just like you just have to be very priority driven and at this point it's since you're competing against other you know second and third time founders like yes you have to take a smarter path you have to take a path where you're leveraging the experience of other people where you're leveraging also and with no

00:12:46 code you're also able to leverage a lot of other people's work to do the heavy lifting because the way that no code really works is that you're still building things with code that are fully functional that can bring you to revenue but there's this whole team behind of these tools that have basically made it so that you can essentially grab these building blocks and start building your own unique solution uh which has code behind it and i think that's a big misunderstanding when people say no code they think like

00:13:15 oh well there's like no code involved no it just means you're still coding it's just visual programming you're building things visually as if you would do like a building something on powerpoint um and using some of the logic that you would have on excel for example and then you suddenly have a solution and as you said earlier like let's not forget that products uh technology is irrelevant unless we have a business unless we're solving a problem that people are willing to pay for now technology can accelerate the growth

00:13:43 of that and that's when we talk about scaling and that's why you know tech startups are so great is because we can scale them um but unless you're really addressing a problem early on that people are willing to pay for then you're still missing the point and any technology you build will not uh will not solve that problem right there are ways to test that without having to go out and spend a bunch of money so i really just try to um i think my end goal is just to get keep more entrepreneurs in the game because i

00:14:09 think that what what happens in the wake of this billion dollar exit dream is basically like a lot of people fail their companies and then they're just like you know what maybe startups are just not for me maybe i should just give up and go back to that nine to five that i don't really like but it's it's you know like and and also there's just so much stuff going on in people's heads you know like so much self-doubt so much like every everyone deals with it but like you either can can be on a growth path where you

00:14:37 realize that this is gonna take uh time that you have to train and grow yourself as an entrepreneur um you know there is no easy path yeah i guess it really isn't i i like the like you mentioned that it's a mental battle like i think that's one of the most challenging things that a lot of people don't think about when they get into entrepreneurship it's that if you're trying to create something out of nothing and like it's it's daunting it's gonna be a struggle like day in and day out for a while like literally until you exit

00:15:05 because there's no road there's no game plan like there's a general idea but for your specific business like you have to figure out a lot of the things that you might not know and we all have general assumptions which is great but i mean we i can't give you a silver bullet to to for your specific business to go out and to execute on so yeah and anyone who's like promising you that they have the answers for you i would run for the hills like basically yes absolutely there is a method you should be seeking the right

00:15:39 mentorship seeking the right process to be able to identify those things but every startup is going to be different so you also need to have people who understand what you're doing who understand the path that you're going through and frankly have gone through it themselves as well but also people who are humble enough to understand that they don't know everything and that at a certain point um as you grow your company specifically when you already have revenue and already have like proven out the model

00:16:04 and all that it's like you need to go more and more vertical specific uh when it comes to the advice that you're seeking yeah early on you early on you can basically get people to revenue with a relatively generalized model because it's funny like every startup is totally different but actually there's a lot of similarities in terms of the way that you should be bringing them to market yeah no 100 i think my favorite uh it's the mentor whiplash uh yes i explained to new entrepreneurs sometimes they're like what like i

00:16:38 understand it's like you will ask two different people the exact same question they will give you two different answers and they both could be right they both could be wrong like that's just the way that it works yeah especially when you get mentorship and when you start getting into these um like certain programs and stuff it's like as a founder you have this voice you have this voice you have this voice you have this voice everyone sounds smart everyone is and and mentor whiplash is really this

00:17:02 idea that like people and founders don't really know what to decipher what's right anymore when they've received so much conflicting stuff but when it comes down to it you have to be the owner and basically um i think you have to kind of sieve it understand the um the person who's giving you that advice what is their background why is their advice uh coming in that way and how does that and ultimately you have to take all that and you have to kind of like jumble it in your head a little bit and then you have to sieve it out and

00:17:29 figure out which which um which one you think is the best approach as well and be decisive about like i'm gonna take this path and i'm gonna test it out and also to understand like these are all experiments early on like it's just about doing a bunch of experiments so if this guy over here says something that you believe in and you do an experiment to see whether or not that's true and then you go here you basically um and you have a conflicting opinion you can test both those things out and due time and then figure out which one

00:17:58 works the best just start with the one that to you makes the most sense and then you know if if that doesn't work out it's like so really the ability to kind of micro pivot early on in startups i think is what leads most um to startup success and that's why you have to not fall in love with your idea you have to be um kind of set in your vision but not necessarily in your path towards that vision you know the execution the strategy the tactics yeah i mean even even product like it could be something totally different

00:18:28 than what you originally imagined it's like yes behind the sky where you want to get to but yeah the path that you're going to take to be able to get there could be entirely different um than what you would imagine so absolutely yeah i mean like you'll have conversations sometimes with customers and you'll realize like you have your idea and you're trying to like push on that idea but then like 10 out of 20 people will say this specific thing and then that just basically means that you've touched on a specific opportunity

00:18:58 now whether people are willing to pay for it or not that's a different question but you really have to be open-minded early on because you can stumble upon crazy opportunities um i mean if you even look at companies um like twitter that were just like literally you came out of like a brainstorm like it tells you that it's like it's it's really just about um doing i think creating a framework for your testing and then really just like being open-minded and looking at results in the face because as soon as you fall in love with

00:19:29 your solution you're kind of like narrowing your playing field you're kind of saying like this is the solution that people want and you're you're going to do the take this approach where it's like anything that proves that you are right so that you feel good you're gonna like go in that direction naturally because you want to be right but you don't have to be right it's okay to not be right you just have to look at those results and when you prove yourself wrong then choose the the next smartest path of the

00:19:54 next experiment i think uh it's funny that you bring up that specific piece because i was having a conversation with rex uh yesterday with their first employee larissa and larissa yeah she's great yeah and the the way that they ended up starting like they were at yc for like uh an ar vr startup and they had run a fintech one before there was more yeah by guy to me yeah i'm brazilian yeah um and then and like they just they were open to hearing about uh the problem and they kept hearing the exact same thing over and over again

00:20:25 like hey i'm having this challenge i'm having this challenge and i'm like oh like okay like let's go do this my and led to the fast unicorn in history so uh your advice is very very valid no it's super it's super interesting that case as well and i'd like to like highlight something i posted something on linkedin the other day which was all about like there was this like there was this line talking about both of them and their names are like enrique and um and something else and basically like the headline just

00:20:55 said the 14 slide pitch deck that these guys used to raise 30 million like it was one of those kind of like hype headlines yeah and i was like that is so misleading that literally is playing into the narrative that uh if you just build a pitch deck and find the right investors like you'll be fine what you don't realize is that one of those guys started coding when he was eight yeah another one started when he was 12. they both built a uh they processed over a billion dollars through pagar me which was a brazilian fintech startup

00:21:26 which was almost directly related to uh to brex and so there's just a lot behind that story and i think as humans we're really inclined towards these stories that are like you know like oh instagram you know like instagram only a couple years and they sold for a billion dollars there were only 10 people in the team when that happened but you don't see everything that happened before you know like instagram before instagram was called bourbon and it was a company that didn't really succeed until they were able to

00:21:54 like narrow down this one specific feature that people really wanted and they became sticky and so i think it's like the biggest problem in entrepreneurship right now is that there are these on there is this um lie of an easy path which basically it's a narrative that people want to buy into yeah and it's the same reason why people are buying um into some of these fake gurus online uh it's this idea that you can just sit on a beach in mexico and and basically get paid a hundred thousand dollars a

00:22:25 month doing nothing um you know and i think that unless you start realizing that it's going to be super difficult no matter what you build and that there are two paths there is the path of you kind of figuring it out on yourself on your own or really a smarter path which is i would argue what we propose at we are no code but i'm completely biased there so you'd have to check it out for yourself or you're basically you know able to build your own product bring it to market understand the customer base and do that

00:22:58 for a fraction of the cost like less than a thousand bucks and within three months so that if you're wrong about that specific thing it's okay you can quickly go on to the next idea or the next iteration of that product until you find that product market fit that's gonna be um and when you reach that paying customers and product market fit then you'll have really justified jumping out of your full-time job and spending the next three to ten years and and probably hundreds of thousands of dollars whether it's yours or other

00:23:25 investors in this this company and i think that's the biggest thing it's like how can we get more entrepreneurs um in the industry and building exciting stuff because that's how we progress as a society and an economy as well i think so although they're hitting the uh i mean it's moving the neon founder failure or it's even like fail like fail fast right so yeah don't wait six 12 18 months on building something if no one actually wants it i i think that actually a lot of time engineers fall into that

00:23:57 category a little bit more than more of the business side because they'll sit in a in kind of their space and they'll be in stealth and just build out something and they have no idea if the market actually wants it and they're like here like oh here's my product i spent the last 18 months building it and it's great from my perspective but it hasn't seen anything in the market um that's actually that's really interesting we i was sitting i was speaking at a panel at an event called the music tectonics

00:24:27 which is like a tech music event and we were in the room with a couple other uh accelerator directors and investors and we basically like had this conversation around the fact that like founders either have the technical know-how and all that or they have the industry and go to market know-how and rarely do you see both and both are like everyone thinks like oh if you're if you're techie like it's so much easier it's like no you know how many techies are built like spending six to six months so you're

00:24:54 building a product and then bring it to market and guess what no one cares and so like there are like two real problems here and i think that it's like you know it's important for both to go a little bit in each other's direction so i always uh you know tell people who are not technical like take some of the technical stuff in your own hands early on it's not too difficult it really isn't um and then i also tell the developers to basically start learning how to do customer acquisition how to do basic

00:25:24 marketing how to do outreach how to do you know potentially even automation to be able to make that that quicker because i think that it's only when you have both those aspects that you're able to really build a a successful startup like building a product is great but it's only 30 of building a successful startup and there are a lot of nuances and early on you have to kind of like start learning some of these things until you can kind of hire people to be able to take those roles moving forward

00:25:51 yeah yeah no conversation um i will so let's dive into it a little bit more because i mean you have vast experience with startup boost and with uh no code so so where are founders uh where some of the other areas that founders are screwing up yeah exactly it's kind of a sigh because it's like i i don't know where to start um i think that hiring marketing agencies or marketing people early on is a big mistake usually it's a double or nothing um in the sense that people have just spent a bunch of money

00:26:28 building a product and they're like but no one's using it oh so i need to you know like i'll actually outline the traditional path i have a great idea i go to developer i try to build this idea complications complications lots of money lots lots of time lost i finally build a product but i bring that product to market no one really cares about this this this product oh and then your first thought is i need marketing i need someone to to market this thing um and so it's like spend a month bunch of money on marketing

00:26:59 uh just to realize that actually uh there's a larger reason why people don't want your product is because it's not really solving a specific need that they're willing to pay for um and then and then after that it's like you can see so many other things i mean and the problem is as when you reach that point it's kind of like people are like um they also play into this narrative i would call it the gary v narrative which is like just keep going never stop never quit you know even if you're going in the

00:27:28 complete wrong direction and that that i think is very a dangerous narrative because it gets people to burn out it gets people to make even deeper mistakes to cost them a bunch of money and i think that the way that people should be seeing it is like any startup that you start you are training to be an entrepreneur to eventually succeed in one of your businesses and again you only have to be successful you only have to be right on one startup to change everything you know and if you look at guys like elon musk

00:27:56 it's like three failed companies before he even hit his first success um that shows that it's really about um taking this more like a career path instead of just a job it's not just you know the likelihood that you will succeed on your first startup or your first idea is is is relatively unlikely that being said if you don't take it that way and you say hey i just have an idea and you kind of are willing to you know you can basically within that idea find the business uh path and be successful in the first or second time

00:28:31 and i think that's what's kind of exciting it's like um i think a lot of education out there is really not actionable that's a big problem because people need a step-by-step path early on yeah and then also on the product side that's a place where people are are most likely to spend a lot of time and money um and so that's really what we shortcut with the uh with our no code program it's basically like we tied together um figuring out exactly what it is you have to build and and along the way really proving out

00:29:02 that that this is that every you know that what you're building is worth building that has a customer base behind it already lining up customers so that when you then invest a bit more time and energy into building that first product you have customers already lined up um and then you're you know even in the way that you're building that product moving forward you're really um you know doing it with your customers no i really like that you touched on the uh the don't give up piece because it's it's

00:29:34 you need to have a lot of self reflection like while you're building this like is this the like you and you have to have that conversation with yourself it's like am i am i nuts like am i am i totally doing this wrong like like let me just try to take a step back and see and have that conversation with myself to see if i feel like i'm actually still on the right path but objectively not this yeah like do i 100 like i have to go i have to do this 100 like there's no i'm not stopping i'm gonna succeed it's like okay

00:30:03 let's take a step back like am i actually being a crazy person or am i am i actually hitting the targets that i set out earlier to go and achieve so i i don't think enough entrepreneurs like actually have that honest conversation with themselves to and i think i think you're right it's a little bit of a culture challenge and that it's it's what we're taught it's what we're kind of bred to be able to do it's like don't like you you're just a little bit more and you'll and you're there it's it's a big challenge

00:30:36 within our our industry yeah i mean our society as well i think it roots from the fact and this is going even one level deeper it roots in the fact that basically uh we take what we do as such a central part of our identity it starts at a very young age when everyone's asking you what do you want to be when you grow up which has an undertone a connotation that says right now you're not good enough buddy or you know like and and and you have to become something to be able to be worthy of anything and i think the more

00:31:07 that we tie our identities to things that we do it's much more difficult to accept failure or like not succeeding at those things and i think a much healthier approach is really to be uh to focus in on the growth mentality like it doesn't matter how skilled or good you are now if you're not improving your skills um then you're going backwards and i think that like that's maybe a healthier way to look at it it's to say like first of all what i do doesn't define me you know if something doesn't go

00:31:37 right like you know if you fall off a horse you don't start like you know you're not like hating yourself for like years and like lost you know it's like yeah okay i fell off a horse yeah the first thing they say about falling off a horse actually funnily enough is like get back right back on the horse you know um and i think that basically the more that we're able to detach ourselves from like what we do defining us as as uh as great people and when i say what we do i mean professionally the the more that we give

00:32:06 ourselves freedom to be able to start being more playful with it and be accepting of ourselves like we are our worst nightmares entrepreneurship is going to the depth of yourself professionally and the depth of yourself personally at the same time it's like so intense and and i'm a true believer that that's why like when you build a startup you have to really go deep on yourself your own self-development your self-understanding because then it as soon as you reach something where you weren't right you're

00:32:35 like oh it's okay instead of being like oh man you're so dumb you know like that stupid voice in your head sometimes that gives you self-doubt yeah instead of having that you start thinking in this other way and i encourage everyone to read the book uh about mindset that's by carol dweck that really talks about these two different like the fix mindset and the uh the growth mindset because it really kind of illustrates in different like in the education system i think also with like high-performing uh

00:33:03 sports people and like business people and uh there's a third angle as well but i think it really comes down to the fact that like yeah we are humans and our only biggest limitations are ourselves always i really like the point that you brought up about the uh well it's just tying your identity to your job i feel like a lot of i mean that's why like if you're fired from a job like it it's not the end of the world like you're going to go get another job but you've tied everything about yourself to that specific place that it hits you

00:33:36 so much harder than it really should when in essence it's just a job and so i really like you bringing that piece up and then and tying directly to entrepreneurship because i think you're 100 right like you're you're you feel stuck that you that this is this is who i am this is what i am if my startup fails i fail and like like why am i even here um yeah and honestly i say this like i say this because i got completely humbled by one of the startups that i started i raised capital for and i failed

00:34:07 and i had to tell these investors that i had failed and and i had to go down the hard path myself to realize that basically like yeah this these were all false narratives that only existed within my own head uh you know even it's like when you're really worried about a specific thing and then when that thing actually takes place like let's say like you want to quit your job and you start replaying and replaying this like moment in your head where you're telling your boss and your head you build it into this

00:34:34 huge monster and then when you actually do it like most of the time the boss is just like oh i respect that oh that's you know like and so i think that that's where we become our own worst nightmares and that's why i encourage people to go deeper into themselves and to start listening to the the voices that you're actually telling yourself every day and they come from like you know from things they come from like actually like deeper traumas you know like a lot of people i'll give you a great example

00:34:58 i'm not good at math how many people have you heard say that to you i'm just not good at math honestly it always just comes down to like having one experience where you're either at like you're 10 years old you're at the drawing board and you're humiliated because you either didn't do it or you and then suddenly you create this this this self narrative which is oh i'm just not good at that you know and and and what you're doing there is it's basically pushing away all responsibility um that that you could actually learn this thing

00:35:29 yes you may not be the most skilled at it to begin with but for me it's all about take responsibility for everything as if everything in the world is your fault because because everything in your world is your fault and so i think that when we talk about like i'm not good at math it's a very interesting thing because it's usually just every time i'm put face to face with math i just panic and kind of just say like oh no i'm not good at this instead of actually being like okay like let me try to see if i can figure this

00:35:58 out and i'm not denying that some people are like uh naturally more skilled than other people but i'm a big believer that like it doesn't matter what level you start at you can become good at pretty much everything now if you have natural talent and you train a bunch you're you have the potential to go even further than the average person but um but there's a great quote i think it's like what was it it's like hustle beats talent when talent doesn't hustle yeah and and instead of hustle i might

00:36:28 like replace that word with like learn or grow but i think it's so true you know in in the world and i think the more that we start embracing that that um that side of entrepreneurship which is a personal side the more that we start becoming better entrepreneurs because we start you know we can hear those uh those things happen in our own mind and we can convince ourselves that we can pretty much learn anything doesn't mean you have to be the best yeah it's like all those people who say like oh i you

00:36:57 know i wish i had learned how to play an instrument that's another one i hear all the time it's like guess what if you pick up a guitar tomorrow and you practice once a month like you will know how to play the guitar after a year okay maybe like once a week it's like kind of this like yeah but what's the point if i'm not the best in the world it's like you know you need to be the best in you know it's like i don't know there's something going on there where it's like we don't give ourselves the patience we kind of give up before

00:37:25 we try and i think that's limiting ourselves um enormously yeah anyway now i'm going into way deeper stuff now we're talking about like founder psychology i don't want to go too too deep into that um all right yeah but it's still i regardless uh great uh understanding a great conversation to be able to dive into this um uh well uh christian what are uh what are the best ways to get uh in contact with you so you can actually go to uh we are nocode.com and you can reach out to us directly we have um you know we have everything

00:38:01 pretty public you can see me on linkedin as well uh christian pavarelli there might be a link uh below this video or somewhere close by um also feel free to email us at info we are nocode.com or myself directly at christian we are nocode.com um yeah happy to chat i'm always excited to kind of add value and um yeah what we what we run internally is basically a program where we teach you step by step for non-technical founders um and we're really you know our whole thing is about preparing you for the next step

00:38:36 uh the growth path and and really to get you to revenue as quickly as possible um without having to necessarily have technical skills awesome now i honestly really appreciate you coming on the show really appreciate the conversation um stepped out a little bit of the norm but honestly it was great to be able to truly understand i think that a lot of the entrepreneurs that watch as well as the vcs might uh definitely have learned something um from it so thank you again um look forward to absolutely look

00:39:04 forward to chatting again soon thank you so much lucas thanks for having me and i look forward to continue to interact moving forward [Music] you